Shekharji,
Very good thoughts
:)
Amen!

dear shekhar,

this is one topic which all of us ponder over at sometime or the other in life.......

shekhar,why is it that certain things fall in place effortlessly in life and certain areas draw out all you have and yet make your efforts null and void?

eg.. you go to a party and smile at a group of people, of which some smile right back and start to talk with you, put you at ease and strike up a friendship with you......while another who may also have great positive energy and definate potential to become a good friend.......somehow just lets the moment pass.....after which that moment tantalizes but does'nt show up !..........where you are left with the feeling that this could have been really special......and yet.......

in terms of education and creativity also.....you start out to do the regular accepted stuff ( BA, BCOM etc ) and when the time for change arrives you just go into a totally different field as if an unknown hand is guiding you? is that not destiny ?

as for 'negative thoughts and passions expressed through fear and doubt'.........dont you think that sometimes a person maybe just cautious due to circumstances and not fearful and doubting ? has it not been your experience ever that introverts can be highly misunderstood......? when you get to know the person you realise that he/she is so different from the impression you carried thanks to either premature judgement or what you may have heard from another.

as for the 'inner being and the outer being are acting in harmony and not in conflict'........ most creative people will be quiet in general and reveal their deeper selves to like minded people.........my flow of expression on your blog may take a loooooong while coming if i had to speak to you instead of write ! it would still not mean that my inner being is not in harmony with my outer being ! it would only mean that im shy until i find familiar ground....!

as for meditation.......how much more are you asking a meditative personality to meditate :) ?

Well said Shekhar!!
What you have said is it!! The secret, whatever you want to call it!

I think this is one thing that should be taught in school along with meditation!!

Why don't they (schools and government) consider this?? It should be made compulsory!

Imagine, what it could do to the future of our world! Kids equipped with this knowledge!!

hi shekhar !

i am a firm believer in destiny. i do believe that the one who created this universe with all that is within it , is also my maker who had plans for me when he brought me here.....which unfold when the moment draws closer and remain a mystery until then.

i also believe that the stars have a very significant effect on our lives and during a good configuration things fall in place easier and a difficult time is experienced during adverse placements.

this does not mean that one should not make any efforts..........infact the moment you draw your first breath in this world your efforts have begun and then onwards they take you where you have come here to go !

in a good phase your intentions for hard work are met with openings and clear channels that show you the way........while adverse phases put blockages ! ( and they are not there by your attitude ! they are for real . )

in retrospect........sometimes we humans have such conflicting behaviour patterns where what you claim you want and what you allow into your life is in total contradiction to eachother ! under those circumstances........i for one thank the lord for being the one in charge of our destiny. left in the hands of humans there would be total chaos !!

Shekhar that url in google...when pasted in search bar, would open a google poogle mail...
anyways dun have one id in that
but
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after that something happened...everything went blank and comments wud not get posted...
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someone did some drama
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smiless

Dear Shekhar,
Very well said ........
Thank you

Regards,
Sree

This stuff about changing destiny and fluid karma is a school of thought spun by half-baked new-age philosophers. There is no room for changing your destiny, because when you talk about a change in natural plans, you are insinuating that you are a doer, and when do that, you are speaking from an egotistic illusion of having control, and you do not have control over anything. People who realise this fully are the enlightened ones..rest all work on the false premise of being a doer of their karma and hence in the illusion of being able to change it.

The premise of destiny is quite simple like robotics. A robot that is programmed to execute a sequence of events with conditions inbetween will do exactly that; and if a jiva consciousness is added to it, it may think that is the one responsible for the sequences programmed in it ;)

The stuff about changing destiny and fluid karma is IMHO misguided. There is no room for changing your destiny, because when you talk about a change in natural plans, you are insinuating that you are a doer, and when do that, you are speaking from an egotistic illusion of having control, and you do not have control over anything. People who realise this fully are the enlightened ones..rest all work on the false premise of being a doer of their karma and hence in the illusion of being able to change it.

The premise of destiny is quite simple like robotics. A robot that is programmed to execute a sequence of events with conditions inbetween will do exactly that; and if a jiva consciousness is added to it, it may think that is the one responsible for the sequences programmed in it ;)

can we change our destiny, WE CAN I HAVE NO DOUBT ABOUT THAT

ruchi,

please tell me what it is that you think you can change..the fact that you are a woman? or can you get another pair of eyes? or can you become a sitar maestro? or can you fly a plane? or can you undo anything that has happened? individualism and the sense of doership is the increasing cause of all misery.

The truth is that destiny is always subject to change based on our intentions and the deep inner desire to achieve anything. So you can be whatever you want and the universe helps you get there if you are clear about what you want, the biggest virtue you need here is courage and the desire to stay on course no matter what.

A great saying goes “All good fortune is a gift of the gods, and you don't win the favor of the ancient gods by being good, but by being bold.” Anita Brookner, so be that and you"ll get anywhere - nothing is very difficult on this planet and everything is out there to be achieved.

Best Regards,
Himanshu

Thinking of changing one's destiny is like the thinking of a drop of water in a river that it can change the river's course.

Thinking of changing one's destiny is like the thinking of a man sitting in a compartment of a train that he can change the direction of the train by pushing or pulling the compartment this way or that.

Thainking of changing one's destiny is like the thinking of a man that he can change the revolution of the earth around the sun or around its own axis.

Changing one's destiny by changing one's thoughts is like saying that one can side step one's youth by changing the feelings/emotions of love/hate in one's youth by reason. Or that one can side-step one's middle age by changing one's rational thoughts by intelligence/wisdom of the old age. One cant change one's thoughts before the time to change them has come. It is an other matter that one may be old even in his childhood or young even in his old age because one's present individual life is a part/phase of one's loong what one may say evolutionary life which spans many individual lives of the present and this too is divided on the whole into four phases of childhood, youth, middle age and old age.

i am not saying i can play god but from my own personal experiences in life i have changes course of my life through my actions and positive thinking.i am not here to convince other people but just to share what my experiences are, if you dont believe or have not experience it in life then u wonr understand.

Harb,

Brilliant eloquence!! All one needs to do is quitely observe a time-lapsed recording of traffic on the streets of Mumbai, and see the automated design of this universe at work.

Non-doership or surrender is taught in most Vedic scriptures as a premise to enlightenment. Non-doership, surrender and predestination are one and the same. The important question is to inquire about the source of the one who seems to be subject to this debate about free-will and destiny.

Ruchi,
To be redundant, where did your actions and positive thinking come from? If you think you are producing them, you are in illusion.

brahmastra

i am in no illusion, that is my belief. i believe that one can think positive and act positive. one has controll over one self and not others. i dont believe in non- action, mindless surrender. i believe that your thoughts become your action, your action become your habit and that becomes yours destiney.

I AM NOT HERE TO PROVE MY SELF RIGHT OR OTHER PEOPLE WRONG. I VALUE UNIQUENESS OF MY EXPERIENCESS AND RESPECT YOUR.

FOR ME DEBATE STOPS HERE AS THERE IS NO RIGHT ANSWER ITS ALL EXPERIENCES AND PERCEPTIONS

Yeah, meditation is a great advice. It gets one focussed to being and then doing becomes just a part of being. It's a great way to act on desires without depending on success/failure for fulfillment.

brahmastra,

I once inquired about the source of the one but in response found that the inquirer, the process of inquiring and the inquired about all merged into one woolly unity. Since then I have no question on this count.

thanks, Harb

Dear Shekhar
Your description of destiny, is not only wonderful but also very encouraging. Sages have described destiny in very similar way, as one of your foot in shackles and other free.

You are free to desire but bound to face the result of that desire.

Thanks
Gagan

dear Harb,
..so does that mean purusha and prakriti are in a way one woolly unity?? please comment.

hii,
hmmm thats a controversial topic to talk abt,but we are here for that only,aint we?
i think that only lazy and non-thinkeres believe in destiny and fortune.there is only planning and hardwork.do good and get good.
u wont work u wont get bread.
so what u wanna have work for it sincerely.
and yes i have done it thats why am saying this.

justbe, yes, purusha and prakriti are one woolly unity. It can only be realized through direct experience though.

Thanks, Harb

Justbe
This is my take.
Purush and prakriti are as separate, as space and matter, as knowing and knowable, as illumination and illuminated. One is ever, and other is transient. One is always the same and other is everchanging. Purush always , and has been one single unit, whereas prakriti has always been in multiple dimensions. When purush (consciousness) knows itself as itself, there arises unity as wooly unit, till then there will always be duality.
Thanks

Dear justbe, my comment given yesterday has somehow been witheld. Here it is again:

Yes, at the end of the day there is only One, which obviously includes both purusha and prakriti.

Harb

There are forms and there is the substance of which forms are made.

Forms always change, substance always remains the same.

But there are never forms without substance and there is never substance without forms.

So for the realized being they are always one, for others they are either forms or substance, hence always in duality. To see oneness without, one first has to experience oneness within.

Even taking purusha and prakriti as space and matter, we now know thanks to Einstein that matter creates its own time and space. So again, there will be no space without matter, nor matter without space. So they will always be one.

thats interesting Harb, some inner communication has happened it seems. just this afternoon I have written on the blog to You and before that post appears here You are back with the relevant response to that yet invisible post on its way. thankx.

don't You think even for the ignorant its also one - as he never bothers about it?? what U say.

thr are few things more - i ll catch You later on them.

Shekhar said: Your destiny....is a potential that exists under the influences of your own Karma and the rest of the Karmic influences upon you in a huge inter-related matrix that is immemorial in time.

Potential and karma are not two different things. A seed has the potential to give birth to the next tree, it is also its/tree's karma. All the other "influences upon it in a huge inter-related matrix that is immemorial in time..." only help it in realising this potential/karma.

The same happens at the level of the universe. The singularity acts as the seed of the universe and has the potential to produce it from big bang right up to the big crunch/next singularity. And so contains universe's karma too.

Yes, karma are always changing but in the destined direction. To the extent the seed has given birth and developed the tree/universe, to that extent it has changed from within.

As we evolve - whether in one life or in many of the like of the present one - we go through four basic phases of knowing things i.e., through senses (as mostly in childhood), feelings (as mostly in youth), intellect, reason, thoughts (as mostly in middle age))and intelligence, wisdom (as mostly in the last phase or old age).

In none of these phases we can change our senses, feelings, thoughts, intelligence before time.

Just as we will have to pass through childhood, youth, middle age and old age and cannot skip/prematurely-jump any with any kind of our own efforts, similarly, we will have to pass through all the four phases of knowing and interacting with the world and cannot change them with our own efforts and prematurely.

Moreover, because of wheels-within-wheels or wheels-without-wheels nature of our evolutionary progress, we in fact go through the four like phases in each day as well and in the same manner (we just cannot know it as an ant cannot know by walking on earth that it is round), which then finally get stretched to the biggest wheel of our whole life and ends up giving us the like four phases in our whole life. (Just mark four phases on a small rubber band and then stretch it from the right end and see how the four small phases give four loong phases but of the similar nature. Or mark four phases on a balloon and then inflate it).

What this means is that we cannot really change even in a day on the above explained manner. We are given the predetermined four phases base-ground even in a day in which we have no say. Then on this given base-ground we can and do operate in terms of our gained free will (gained to the extent we have outgrown our senses, feelings, intellect, intelligence etc in any given time in any given phase as the case may be).

For example, pulled by our feelings we will fall into loves, wars, hates in our youth. Then we will suffer. Suffering will make/force us try to understand the situation through reason (which in fact made us develop reason in the first instance and in the process become human beings from feeling-propelled animals at the level of species). This will slowly make us outgrow feelings/emotions of the youth and eventually enter into the phases of reason.

Now to the extent we have outgrown the feelings/emotions, to that extent we will go on gaining free will from them and to that extent we will save ourselves from falling into their trap again and to that extent we will seem to be able to change our destiny by CONTROLLING OR CHANGING OUR FEELINGS.

Now replace youth with middle age on the larger scale of whole life or to adult life on the scale of half life and change feelings/emotions with reason, thought, intellect. We will try to understand and interact with the world through reason. And again as a consequence we will suffer (not for nothing the Age of Reason at the global cultural level has been also called the Age of Anxiety. We will develop strong egos, strong self-serving attitudes because reason makes us 'dry' towards other human beings, other constituents of nature. Reason does not allow me to see that I and nature are ultimatley one and that I should not exploit it ruthlessly for my sole comfort etc etc).

Eventually we will suffer - as we are at the verge of suffering on the global scale now - and to that extent we will outgrow the slavery of reason and enter the phase of intelligence, wisdom.

The four basic phases are given to us because each small or big system in the universe passes through four basic forces induced four basic interactions on its evolutionary journey in each minute, hour, day, month, year and finally in its whole life on its growth or evolutionary journey - in fact this comprises its whole evolutionary journey -and in the porcess is given these four like phases in all of these time-units, which as told already, add up non-linearly or through sort of wheels-without-wheels way.

Thanks for reading, I hope it does not overly strains your brains, I wrote it because I felt some friends here wanted to know a bit more about this destiny thing.

Purush(consciousness) is always formless, but always aware of the forms (prakriti),
Whatever is observable falls under the realm of prakriti,even subtle processes like feelings, thoughts, intellect are prakriti, as they are never aware of themselves. only I(awareness) am aware of them.
Purush is all inclusive, and prakriti is play of name and forms. Identifying with name and forms, purush never knows itself as itself. Just like water itself being colorless, always take the color of substance added to it. Similarly consciousness identifying with body, mind, feelings, assumes a personality or ego.
Just as butter ia always hidden in yogurt but never visible, Sadhna is like churning of Yogurt to separate butter(purush) from buttermilk(prakriti)
The oneness of purush and prakriti is ofcourse known to the realized one , who knows that it is only consciousness, which is all pervading, all existence is consciousness.
Thanks

Justbe, thanks. Yes, in this case ignorant are not much different from innocent.

Justbe, since we all are part of One's perfect One Scheme of Things, inner communications too are not impossible. Rather these are very much part of the Scheme. We can see these very apparently in One family, in the scheme of things of one family. Let us take the example of our owns. Many times you know even before communicating what your father is now saying to you, or your brother or your mother and so on. In a way it goes even beyond ususal thought reading. It is sort of in the air.

At the level of the universal scheme of things it happens through what now-a-days is called non-local connections. An individual affects the whole now and the whole effects an individual. More tuned you are to the whole - more you have risen above your individuality - the more you will be able to catch and respond to the unspoken communications. Which as said above is rather in the air.

..further interesting about this universal scheme of things is that that post of mine that i wrote has not appeared here and got lost somwhere into the universal wwweb. Questions disappearing on its own as if they were never there! Good Sign!! (of universe's communication)

dear Harb, what is your take on 'DESIRE'?

the upanishads somewhere says-
"That self is indeed Brahman; It is also identified with desire. As is its desire, so is its resolution; and as is its resolution, so is its deed; and whatever deed it does, that it reaps"

and Astavakra refers-
"Desire to be the only bondage and the destruction of desire is said to be liberation. He goes to an extend to recommend even disregarding doing works of worldly prosperity and refraining from any such performance of good works as means to attain quietude."

The simplest way to view the individual mind is as a computer program which is synchronised with the other minds. These programs are, indeed programmed, to take defined courses. However, to the ignorant who haven't reached a certain level of realisation, this is not as clear, and they keep babbling about free-will which is just an accumulation of karma and doership..simply put, if you think you are doing it (the cause), you're gonna feel the effects.

Justbe, there is an indescribable "What Is, Is," call it God, call it Void, call it Nature, call it One, call it Universe with capital U and so on. And then there is a universe which begins from it with big bang and ends in it with big crunch, and further does so in eternal cycles because in its evolution are the seeds of its involution and in its involution are the seeds of its evolution.

Somewhere on the line of this later come into being what are called human beings with all their specific traits like language etc etc. Then they try to understand the whole universe (and even the Universe) with their limited language-led vision. In the course of this they coin the word 'desire' and supported by their own experience of producing things they desire, they begin to see the universe too as the product of desire.

But the question arises: Whose desire was it at the very beginning of the universe, when there were no human beings? Was it then the desire of the One, God, Universe?? Would God, One, Universe then be like some Superhumanbeing having the desires like humans only larger?

Obviously, God, One, Universe will not be like some Supperhumanbeing and the so-called desire at that level too will be of some other form. To me, at the beginning it is like an automatic process which gives birth to the universe and not some desire of some Superbeing, already summed up by me above in the words "...universe..further does so in eternal cycles because in its evolution are the seeds of its involution and in its involution are the seeds of its evolution."

Moreover, at the time of big bang a spark is produced which then acts as the Soul of the universe or the soul of further entities including us human beings produced within it and as it finds itself bound by matter everywhere, entangled into matter, impriosned into matter everywhere, freedom, liberation, disentanglement first unspoken but finally fully spoken when things come down to human levels becomes its apparently avowed goal/desire. The force of the spark producing big bang goes on pulverising matter binding it and in the process goes on getting proportionate freedom or liberation or disentanglement. And accordingly basic desire of getting freedom too goes on changing its forms, and from outside it seems as if we are producing the world because of our desires.

Moreover, as the universe'/all entities/us human's main function is to get freedom, in the ultimate analysis any actions irrespective of whether they are good or bad, which hinder this freedom will be undesirable. Ashtvkra's take on good actions comes in this category and I fully agree with him. In fact after what I call my first experience of oneness I unknowingly lived Ashtavakra's Gita for about a decade. You simply go beyond good and evil...

Justbe, the following short blog may interest you:

http://shriramanamahrishi.blogspot.com/

i have been often having soups of self enquiry with Shri Ramana Maharishi. thankx for inviting.

dear Harb, well explained! now why this question erupts in me - not that i have any big bunch of desires..i feel quite settled and at peace within and no longer get carried away by external influences, but there are some subtle built-in desires(like say creating divine expression/experience through cinema) which are there and then there are certain sections of spiritual texts condemning all form of desires makes normal living messy..i hope u understand.

..so as it seems from the way you perceive and have presented - that actions/desires that are not hindrance to freedom are natural and desirable and not condemnable as actually they are just extension to force of the spark? am i close in understanding??

I was jus reading the above articles n i found the response written by person no.2(or shud i say comment no.2)extremely interesting...I always feel life is a combination of chance and choice..yes destiny does play some part in your path pof life aided by cirrcumstances which may aide you or block your path...

Justbe, I would say, where spiritual texts end, the individuality begins. Or, where learning through spiritual texts ends learning through self-experience begins. And one never knows to what kind of actions the latter may lead one to since every individual is unique and so is what follows after the self-experience. You may indulge in what are usually called bad actions and yet may find that they too are 'good' (in the context of the larger scheme of things)and you may do so-called good actions but may just find it difficult to attach the adjective good to them. They may just become second nature to you, in which case you will feel no need to read spiritual texts to know whether you should do them or not.

There were times, at around 28, when I used to ask myself: "Who am I? Where have I come from? Where am I supposed to go after my so-called death? Has my being, my "I" some permanent point of reference or is it merely a chance bubble floating meaninglessly in the wilderness of space? What is space? where this world ends, what is beyond that? What is God? What is good and bad? What is the best way to live this unimaginably short life? And so on. A voice from within will tell me that answers are written in the holy book of your religion and you can read them from there. But I would cry out: "But why O God or whatever you are, why should I have them second-hand, why cant I have them firsthand, myself?

And then, I had an experience which is really beyond description. As a consequence I was left with no questions for ever. And the thing to be noted related to your question here is that after this experience, while most people would have thought I will become a godman or saint or something like that, I indulged in what one may say wine, women and wealth to my heart's content for about a decade. It is an other matter that ultimately all these were washed off my system and I was left with what one may say my naked or pure self. (Then began an other phase of my life...which gave me an insight into the working of the whole scheme of things of the universe.)

As for good actions in between, many many people, and not necessarily all relatives and friends tell me even to this day (I am 59 now) that I have done so much for them, done this and that for them, saved them and so on and I try to rememeber and even then feel and tell them that they are exaggerating my contribution, that they got what they deserved if it were not through me it would have been through somebody else.

So the point is, after a certain point you have to discover your own unique self, your own unique level on the ladder of evolution and act accordingly. On a personal note, I would say fulfill your desires to your heart's content, these are there to be fulfilled and not suppressed nor they are really supressed ever, they will erupt this way or that again and again, and even if you suffer while fulfillng them the suffering will help you move ahead on the ladder of evolution. In fact this is the only way of nature or scheme of things to make us move ahead on our evolutionary journey. I do not believe in good and bad desires or actions, but I detest socalled good desires/actions more because more often than not there are lurking just below the surface a volcano of socalled bad desires and the socalled good desires/actions or the wish for them is only an effort at camouflag to save oneself from acknowledging them and acting upon them. I dont think it is the problem of the new generation though, but it certainly was of the people of my generation.

:)

correction:
Does this one time explosion, NON explainable experience or a satori of sorts happen with all who realise?
or it can be 'through' in some other way
or it can just be a part of an aware/awakened living process? ..what does ashtavakra mean when he says - he who consider himself free is free indeed, and he who considers himself bound remains bound..or what does krishna mean when he says by just turning inwards and remaining there as a sakshi everything changes.

U seem to be in a experienced position to elaborate on its finest details...
me as a seeker silently seem to be merged with the universe when in a position of no thoughts, when in state of meditation, and when in sakshi bhaav but it is not the state always. and if i don't grip it i tend to get back to the usual outer conscious state which actually is the dominating state throughout the day. and at times it grows toooo frustrating not to be able to experientially feel that so called satori. some say i must drop the effort but what to do what not to do it is very difficult to say. offlate i primarily tend just to bring back myself to saakshi bhaav reminding myself to be more and more aware with every passing day :)

Justbe, not all can have the satori or sudden experience just as not all can have the Eureka experience or the sudden insight Einstein had. Yet all - and here even those who have had the sudden experience first - have to go 'there' slowly, step by step as well, the first to realise thier insight or sudden experience now CONSCIOUSLY, step by step, and the later as sort of the wedge-shaped crowd following them, or in the way many have now understood Einstein's insight.

One can be just behind them, one can be far behind, one can reach there even as a person of the next generation, but eventually all reach there. It is an other matter that not all can have the same accompanying ecstacy.

Someone asked Ramana, "On what a realised being should focus his dhyana?". "On dhyana itself," replied Ramana. This means the same as what you say reverting to shaakshi bhaawa or witness self. It means even realised masters have to keep focussing on the witness self, because this second realisation is usually a life-long process. Even endless process. The first is like the sudden nap, the second is like actually reaching night and sleeping.

At an other level it is again like, spirituality intuiting and science/reason then actually taking us/reaching there step by step. Science in fact never reaches there simply because reaching it is like reaching infinity by multiplying a number with an other number i.e., 2x2x2x2....

Then there comes a time when one or the science as a whole just surrenders, or just considers itself as having reached there to use the words of Ashtavakra. Krishna too points towards the similar fact, but it is obvious that only enough ripe - or when science has already reached the end of its tether so to say - can reach there in this way that is, by just considering, or remaining there as shaakshi. If you can do it good, if not your latent tendencies are yet strong enough to draw you strongly to the world and you will not be able to. But usually when one begins in this direction one has already reached a certain ripeness, because not all can reach this shaakshi bhaawa thing or can realise it what it really is. Do whatever you can do easily, go in a relaxed manner, thinking that whatever you do, and I repeat WHATEVER, the grand scheme of things is surely taking you towards your destined goal which is to merge with One or Self. In fact we cannot even resist even if we want to. Again as Ramana says somewhere else, "We are caught as in the jaws of a tiger, it will not leave us until we reach the SElf." Indeed we are constantly being pushed from behind and sucked from front by the One or Self or God or whatever there is.

Dear justbe, forget about bugging, your questions are rather welcome.

As for the purpose of life, imagine yourself to be a part of a flowing river, rather an indistinguishable part. Pushed by and flowing with the flow you just carry on with your life and the question of purpose does not arise in you.

You do so in fact in your childhood and youth phases in the River of Life.

A child does not ask for purpose rather enjoys living his natural life which comprises mainly of playing games and indulging in senses. So with a youth, he does not ask the purpose, rather enjoyes his life chasing opposite sex, loving and so on.

Then reverting back to the river, thanks to some excessive energy thrust now imagine yourself to have become a whirlpool in the same river (in real science you have become a dissipative structure in the river of energy). Now you think yourself to be separate from the river, from its flow, on your own, sometimes having the feeling of even flowing opposite to the direction of the river. You feel cut-off from your beginning, from your end, from you natural energy flow; you feel impriosned in your whirlpool-like existence, you feel suffocation, seek a way out, so begin to think, begin to ask questions, and finally come to the basic questions of the likes of "who am I" and "What is the purpose of your life."

The previous two phases to which I call the phases 'to grow' and 'to love' are like what you call your lower self (actually there is only one self and this is a misnomination but we can go along). Now you have entered an inbetween phase, 'to know.'

As long as your energy as a whirlpool will increase, your ego will increase and the prison around you in the form of thoughts will increase in strength. And so long you will ask questions and more questions, try to understand your situation more and more, suffer more and more. Eventually you will be left with question like "Who am I?" and "What is the purpose of my life?" and then some day suddenly you will again re-estblish your link with the main flow...After which merging with the flow in full will only be a matter of time. Now you may be said to have entered the phase of higher-self identified by me with the phase "to be."

Then again, as in childhood and youth, you will no longer ask yourself the prupose of your life. You will be eager to enjoy the play of that phase, in which you just replace a particular opposite sex with the whole of nature (You then act as Shiva and nature acts as Parbati). The place of physical sex with the opposite sex will now be taken by physical interaction with the whole world as a spiritual guru/teacher like J.Krishnamusrti etc and the place of just loving will be taken by just sitting lost in the oneness of whole of nature like Ramana.

The problem you are facing now is that you are trying to understand the situation of the last phase while still in the third phase or while still in the state of whirlpool howsoever weak. Time will slowly take you beyond it. Then rest assured you will not ask the question of purpose. You will rather be enjoying life somewhere in some way, your unique way.

Realization or Eureka experiance does occur, though well rightly said, it does not remain forever. Rememberance of that event and striving to be in I AMNESS or witness state all the time does help to prolong that state. Mind is very strong, and it takes over the moment, attention is paid to it. Just like listening to old song would bring all the associated memories of that era, producing feelings and emotions. The best remedy is ignoring the thoughts and feelings and bringing the attention back to saakshi or feeling of I AM, and prolonging it as much as possible.
Reading a spiritual book everyday, especially before falling asleep, helps to maintain the momentum.

ya..its all a journey 'from be to being' and back 'just to be while being..'

going into silence for the coming few days, will catch you here at the same place with the big bang:)

last night i saw a film
which ended with a buddhist note
which i would like to share:

"How can one prevent a drop of water from ever drying up?"

By throwing it to the see...

Lol, now that is all! From the sea the drop brings out a body with/and wetness, plays around a little and in the process goes dry...and again it is time to go back to the sea...

Now dont ask me what is the purpose again...ask a youth who just had an experience of love-at-first-sight whether he needs any more purpose...

Dear Harb,

It has been a pleasure to read your posts. I do not believe in coincidences anymore and so it is perfect that you are into Sri Ramana Maharshi's teachings, cause so am I and I've been to Arunachala as well.
I think I'm in the 3rd phase as you specified..still in the jaws of the tiger, but with a good share of mystical experiences and in and out of the grounded stillness. I'd love to know any physical experiences you've had while practising self-inquiry such as chakra vibrations, heat, etc. If you don't want to talk about it here, I could give you an email address.
Your experiences on the path fit almost like a glove with mine.

Thanks

Dear brahmastra, no problem posting here except that the talk may get a bit longer and in the meantime the thread may simply go in hiding. You can write to me at harb_singh@yahoo.com or we can continue talking at the blog related to Ramana (URL below) and started by a person similar to you and under similar circumstances. He wanted to ask some questions and I asked him to read Ramana's "Talks". He then wanted some clarifications and I suggested he start a blog so that others too could benefit from that. So you too may start taking part in that blog. Here is the address and you can address your questions/concerns in comments:

http://shriramanamahrishi.blogspot.com

PS: Ramana has special place in my life's journey more about which I shall write at the blog in response to your queries.

Justbe, if you are reading you too may find the blog interesting.

yes uncle harb..just read..any place is fine..with a cup of tea..will join in a day or two!!

dear herb, Sir i am back..and if it is okay let us use the same room with due permission of shekhar.

let's begin first with a related querry on Maharishi's statement related with the topic of this very post.

what does Ramana Maharishi mean when he says "Neither is everything predestined, nor do we have free will in everything." or what does K mean when Krishna says “He does not interfere with the free will of a living entity.”

[the way i perceive destiny and free will is as : a combination of universal consciousness(SELF generated), karmas(pralabdhas - continuity and discontinuity due to past actions), and free will(a sort of rational thought - positive/negative originating through brain/intellect/memories /inspiration)]

The perplexity lies - which dominates which and when and how???
or is there anything more? or less?

i forgot to mention samskaras and genetical influence, and ones uniqueness(?? - which actually is being no different from being one with the Self) working within the modes of nature which all are interwoven with others..but the real perplexity still lies in -
which dominates which and when and how???

Justbe, Ramana always speaks from the point of view of the One, Self etc.

Somewhere he has gone even beyond and says: "There is no creation, no destruction, no path, no achievement..." And indeed, from the point of view of the One there is nothing but One always at 'His' destination, where all other concepts such as creation, destruction, path, achievment, destiny, free will just coalesce into disappearance.

Masters know that the fact of absence of free will should not be told to the public in general otherwise it can be grossly misused. It is for the spiritually ripe ones only. This may be the reason Krishna may have said in a certain situation that he does not ointerfere in people's free will. Otherwise the fact is that you do not have free will but you must act as if you have, and even you must be given the punishment for any supposed wrong-doing because this is the only way with which the evolutionary scheme of things pushes us further on the road to freedom..towards achieving more and more freedom. You fall in love, you get lost in love, you make mistakes, you are punished, you suffer, you begin to think, you try to reason things out, you have moved from the age of being an emotional person to the age of being a reasonable, a rational person. You have evovled.

Harb

if the existence is just about everyone evolving as you say, further with every thing predestined and no free will, then there is no point in the so called theory of building one's karmas or its effect henceforth etc..what u are saying is sounding like as if every drop of water falling on a particular point on earth is preprogrammed/predestined in the whole wondrously spontaneous expression of the universe?? that the universe is a pre-programmed organism with no spontaneity(cause and effect based upon the laws of the nature) of the minutest of its happenings??

and then when everything that one does or doesn't do is destined/predestined of sorts - sort of means all that is there is the Self in whatever that happens..then what does it really mean by acting out of the Self or there is nothing like that..i hope you understand what i mean here..lemme try - as in that way there would be no difference between anything that Ramana does/doesn'tdo or mr. x or mr.h or mr.s does/doesn't...whence all that happens/doesn't happen is happening and not happening(destined) through Self and nothing else(be it karmas, pralabdhas, free will of sorts, genetical or samskaras, brain, intellect, inspiration) ..if all is already Self, which is, then what is the point of even evolution?? i mean there is definitely an operational difference in existence..that operation difference is what i am referring to. so one must act as one has a choice - how does then one choose(in accordance with the destiny say) to live in harmony with the Self

59..now this is a bit messy - the state is none of the above and it is very important for me to talk about it since it has come up now on its own. at times without such a discussion based on duality and non-duality it is not possible to clean one's consciousness from the residuals. It’s more important for me than anything else. But somehow it is stuck at this moment in terms of words...

60, justbe, forget for a while non-duality and act from the point of view of duliaty. Sometimes the devil of duality has to be given its due in terms of name, fame and fortune whatever is applicable specially to you before it will leave you in peace to exist and do your thing in non-dual state. Shunning it prematurely is like running from the field. Yes, falling into the trap of words is painful but let us just carry on, someday you may just jump beyond the words...

No uncle herb :) thats not what i meant.
and as such now its not really possible to stay that way...its like staying in the whirlpool and making it home when one has already known what is it to be at home or to be in the flow as a part of it. The residuals are getting vigorous instead of getting dormant bringing one into a state where one comes into a dilemma which is which..and aggravating the battle of duality and non-duality. That is why i said its(to get out of it) is more important than anything else.

ok let me try and xpress it in words the state of affairs bringing it to the Basic Question.

Let me explain the state beginning with an instance and then it will reveal in itself its concern through its momentum.
See i don’t drink. It doesn’t mean that i never drink; seldom might it happen. But i have no clinging to it. So is the case with many sensory pleasures that exist. (and its not about shunning them prematurely or anything of such sorts. i have really made no great effort in this regard as far i can remember..it could have been satiated someway in previous lives as a german sadhvi says about it in my case.. i don't know and as such i have also lived it much in my this life as well – i am around 30)...i don’t see myself 'excited' by any of them anymore. It’s just natural in my case. Nor do i feel any die-hard repulsion to any of them. It’s a sort of 'welcome' situation. (i find 'welcome' a better word than 'surrender'). This brings in quite a settled serene feeling of just being, being at inner peace, truly at home of sorts, still functioning normally in the affairs of life without any sense of egoity. This state when usually remains as my normal state the experience of living seems just afloating and serene. And i tend to interpret the state as being one with THE SELF (Q#1 am I right?). This, if I am right, i feel very often.

But then i also know that no feeling of Satori of sorts has happened – as i mentioned earlier to you in this blog. It lead me to all types of experiments with the dhyana, kriya, gyana, jnana which further has translated to the taste of tranquility and hence creates Silence for a while(Q#2 which i again interpret as THE SELF?) Coming across such interpretations in certain scriptures gives a sort of assurance and it turns out to be a thorough intellectual understanding of the wholeness. But it keeps bothering as it hasn’t happened intuitively in the heart.

And maybe that’s why slowly the ‘self’ enters now via thoughts..just by mere plain entanglement with thoughts in general, which erupts up as traces of disturbances of usual sorts. Though not of high intensities, still a disturbance is a disturbance! At times it results in frustration concerning my inability to get rid of thoughts or disassociating or getting carried away with them.

This actually thoroughly triggered and still triggers the intensity of the thirst “Who am I?" and also that "if I get to know who am I(in spurts – which also i am not sure whether those spurts actually represent my true Self or not) why doesn’t the whole thing stays?” and this actually is what brought me to Ramana. And when i thrusted Who am I it disconnected the chain of thoughts, rather the complete system of it and took/takes me to a sort of Silent space like a new born baby intuitively seeking survival reaches the mothers breast. There is truly no duality in that Silence(Q#3 but does that mean this Silence is one’s true nature - THE SELF, as it is called??). Here Ramana though puts it straight - “In this nothingness or silence there is no ‘I thought’ – and that is what you are. The REAL SELF is not connected with any thought.”-Lets call this statement (a).

Till here it is okay. I see that i can feel it also and even the other sages hold the same atleast on this one point. Further he says, “There is nothing further. Knowing THE SELF is being THE SELF.”- Lets call this statement (b).

For a while it feels that THE SELF has transcended everything, though of course visibly everything is as it is, even the functioning is normal though then everything feels like happening with much ease and peace. The funda of ‘knowing THE SELF is to be THE SELF’ feels like alive and kicking. But sooner or later(which usually is in minutes, very rare in hours or a day), the while hence passes and the thoughts re-enter followed by the pattern of thoughts and ones engagement with it. Back to square one.

I sometimes keenly observe it while it happens and evaporates – and one of the answers i get is my inability to find out whether that Silence was actually my true nature, ie THE SELF. The Silence seems no longer there, and again starts the cycles of duality; the situation further aggravates with the confusion of (a) and (b).
..and then comes the tool of ‘AWARENESS’ when Ramana says – “Encountering the state of SILENCE, hold on to THE REAL. Heron there is no need to do anything further, AWARENESS is enough.”
That is why i told you that offlate i realized the utter importance of saakshi bhaawa with the deeper understanding..!! here on i don’t know??

THIS IS IT.

{Please do not try to take the discussion to a different plane and hence dissolve my questioning – stick around exactly what it is – the way i have said it – for once i need to take it headon}

hi uncle herb, while you enjoy the coolness of the air i rewrite the last bracketed text of post #62 to you right here :
{Please minutely focus around the areas the way i have expressed while you respond to my situation the WAY IT IS. I want to face the truth of these questions head on than dissolving them}

..just felt that the framing of words was flat towards, so rewrote to you.

Shall wait for you response when you are back from your shimla camping!

Hi justbe, right after writing my post @61 I felt it was not complete but since I was in a hurry i could not rewrite/revise/elaborate it. Now again I am writing from cybercafe so have not much time but I just wanted to say that I fully understand your situation and jointly we can tackle it headon.

In fact, as I have already said that even after a satori experience a person has to reach 'there' again step by step which is a life-long process, so you because of a person of next generation and I because of being of later category we both may be in the same boat so for as our present discussion goes and both may be learning something from it. so it gives me added motivation to take this discussion to its logical conclusion as they say. Now a tentative response to what you have written in your post 62.

First let me explain how the evolution, whether of a culture or of an individual, proceeds further.

First soul or spirit or spirituality takes/makes sort of a quantum jump to its next evolutionary destination and then from 'there' or with respect to 'that', reorganises its mind and body, leaving in the porcess the previous organisation in chaos or to its own slow death/disintegration.

Now we both may be said to be doing this: we have known and act from the stand point of Self; we look/seem-to-fall into the previous mental states/positions from 'there'; we feel uneasy with them; we feel that these should rather be in the new way; and eventually we will bring it around to that way. For the purpose we continuously go to our previous state/mental thoughts/patterns and then re-organise them. The whole process looks as if we are drawn to our lower way of life while actually we are at the same time, may be not that apparent to us at present because as of now it is happening at a very subtle level, reorganising that according to our present level of understanding.

Ramana rightly says that we should just be a witness and the things will happen on their own, because the whole process, of disordering/disintegration of the lower level/pattern and ordering/reintegration of the higher level is taking place on its own. Because you cannot stop going to 'see' your lower states and you can not stop from seeing them with respect to your new understanding. For example, if your understanding has now developed from seeing duality to seeing oneness, you will have to first see duality and then see it again as oneness to finally settle at seeing it always as oneness.

An other example. Suppose you are yet a child, enjoying playing games with your friends...Then suppose at due time your soul from within has made a quantum jump to its next destination of being a youth. What will happen will be that from now on you will go with your friends for playing games but from within you will not be that interested in them, your dhyana will again and again come to may be the thought of this girl or that or even of just seeing this girl or that (akin to your coming back to self now). Now what you need to do in this situation? Nothing. As the time will pass you will find your self going to play with your friends becoming increasingly boring/disinteresting and proportionately girls incresasingly occupying your dhyana. Now replace the state of playing games with the state in which you say you are drawn to your lower level thoughts etc and dhyana towards girls with dhyana towards Self because this is the destination now, and you will have your present situation explained. In due time you will fully settle in your new state on your own.

This is response to only your first paragraph. I will come to the rest later.

Let me know if what I have written above has made any sense.

Harb

Daer justbe, I shall come to point wise reply when I reach home after about four/five days.

dear uncle herb, i will sahejly wait for you till you reach home. sahej pakkey so mitha hoey.

one thing i forgot to mention in the bracketed text and it again happened. i would request that we/you don't use examples in describing a situation though i understand the beauty that lies in using them. just lets not use them for a while and then lets see what happens, love, enjoy and take(:n) care!

Dear juatbe, I have incidently found the thread but since it is becoming too long I will answer your query at the thread "The Purpose of Life." Please look for it there by to morrow.

Harb

Can we change our destiny? There are many 'prophets' out there, ready to market mysticism, intervention through amulets and other items; all in the name of changing our destiny.
The Kabbalaistic answer to the question is, "Only the Upper Light can change our destiny." Nothing else can do it.

Here's a link to Michael Laitman on how to change your destiny. A related article and video are included.

http://www.laitman.com/2008/07/only-the-upper-light-can-change-our-destiny/

sir........this is noor from your city and country.............

Well there is nothing call destiny..........well there is god...there are some scientific studies like astrology that are fairly helpful.

Well me...i am 39 age male.....a terrible failure till date for many reasons...................i always wanted to make it as big time film producer/film director with no money-no background-no experience..................but i am sure that i have the passion/strength....i am working on cordinatging my formula of destiny...that is someday sometime someone together will make it happenfor me.
9833844051 mobile

Destiny to me feels like playing a video game. The map is laid out, as you play along, the pre-programmed stuffs (goons, guns, girls..etc.) will show up no matter what. How you react, or response, to these things/events can be controlled in advance. Alterating your worldview, or how you define "good/evil", or how you react to what you define to be "good/evil", ... i.e. your belief systems, helps you face these events, and remain unpertubed as much as possible when "you get shot", and as happy as possible "when you get the jackpot". :)